La photo qui figure dans votre livre page 120 est effectivement de très grande qualité!
Autochrome Chaput
Re: Autochrome Chaput
Respect absolu pour ce livre,sorti à une époque où rien ne se publiait sur l'aviation 14-18.J'ajoute également que les couleurs de la reproduction publiée dans mon livre sont, en principe, fidèles.
J'avais été moi même chez l'imprimeur contrôler qu'il n'y ai pas de dérive, au moment de l'impression du cahier couleurs.
(Je ne cherche pas à faire de pub, car le tirage est épuisé).
Content de vous voir reprendre la plume, d'ailleurs, avec votre article dans le dernier n° d'AVIONS.
Bien cordialement,
David Méchin
Re: Autochrome Chaput
Concernant la couleur "rousse" présente à l'avant du fuselage, nous en avions longuement discuté avec Bernard Klaeylé, à l'époque, et nous en avions conclu qu'il s'agissait tout simplement de la couleur du contreplaqué verni de la joue, la couleur marron du camouflage s'arrêtant à hauteur du pare-brise.
Il existe des photos noir et blanc du N940 et il est intéressant de constater que le film orthochromatique ne fait aucune différence entre l'orange et le marron.
Il existe des photos noir et blanc du N940 et il est intéressant de constater que le film orthochromatique ne fait aucune différence entre l'orange et le marron.
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soupape1418
- Messages : 119
- Inscription : mer. janv. 18, 2012 1:00 am
Re: Autochrome Chaput
Bonjour Claude,
mais pour le mot "Combustible"...ça ne l'est pas!
Sauf si le "i" de trop soit d'époque.
Bien amicalement
Dominique
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CTP
- Messages : 2685
- Inscription : mar. févr. 28, 2006 1:00 am
- Localisation : Les Abrets en Dauphiné (38)
- Contact :
Re: Autochrome Chaput
Bonsoir Dominique
L'oeil de lynx a encore frappé !!!
Cdlt
Claude
L'oeil de lynx a encore frappé !!!
Cdlt
Claude
Claude Thollon-Pommerol
http://www.asoublies1418.fr accueille volontiers tout document personnel ou familial que vous souhaitez partager. Site en reconstruction. Soyez patients.
http://www.asoublies1418.fr accueille volontiers tout document personnel ou familial que vous souhaitez partager. Site en reconstruction. Soyez patients.
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raoul lubliner
- Messages : 5
- Inscription : lun. nov. 09, 2015 1:00 am
Re: Autochrome Chaput
A thank you to all and a somber Armistice Day Greeting from San Diego, California (here, it is 9:00 p.m., 11 November.) I stumbled upon this site a only a very few days ago while I "Googled" "Lumiere Autochrome, Verdun".
My apologies for not writing in French, but it has been nearly 50 years since I studied your rich language as a small boy in school.
Also, many thanks Claude for your efforts in garnering the information above. I will be attempting to contact both sources for a very high resolution scan of both Lt. Jean Chaput and his N940 Lumiere Bros. Autochromes in the very near future.
What I would like to share with you good people (and I am very certain many, perhaps all of you already know this,) is that there is another Lumiere Autochrome of an early Nieuport in camouflage which may be located at "Photo 12."
This Autochrome is of a Nieuport 10: N300, or N306, or N308, it is difficult to be certain. This particular image was taken at a Belgian flying school in May of 1917. It most clearly depicts what appears to be a mostly "in the field" applied camouflage of this same "Nieuport Red, Yellow (Ocher) and Green" or "Dead-Leaf Camouflage" as found on N940.
However, easily discerned in this view (once it has been fully color corrected) is evidence of a dark conifer green as well as the lighter Ocher hue, the known straw/yellow-green color seen on the fuselage of N940 immediately adjacent to Lt. Chaput. This other shade of green, the dark green is most visible on the extreme right of the superior starboard flying surface and somewhat less so elsewhere on the ship. However, it is also apparent that upon the main flying surface none of the colors including this deep green had been applied at the Nieuport factory as the pattern and manner of application of the colors is quite different from the standard seen on many B&W photos. That is not to say this darker green is not a standard Nieuport color, for a great many reasons, I am convinced it was.
Of significance, the inferior port wing is indeed observable as a "genuine" Nieuport factory, spray-applied, Ripolin oil based paint finish. This assertion is made as this wing has much misting and blending of the very same 3 colors as seen on the fuselage of N940. Further, the port side of the Nie.10 fuselage is painted in the the very same shades of colors and in the very same sequence as on this lower wing. But that paint was applied in what appears a less sophisticated manner, again indicating this ship itself having not been delivered as camouflaged. I'd expect the lower left wing had been replaced with a factory camouflaged example. There is much more to be discussed in this regard, but unfortunately, not at this time.
What I can say is this, for many years I believed there were two shades of brown and but one green until this Nie. 10 Autochrome image was made available to me.
What I may also say that is differing from current thought on this matter and as Mr. Allan Toelle has correctly pointed out; 30% of the surfaces of early Nieuport camouflage were "light colored" while 70% were "dark colored."
From that comment, I now realize this: both greens will photograph on "Orthochromatic B&W" as a lighter shade of gray than will either shade used on a Nieuport of the browns. The reason is there is a measure of blue in virtually any shade or hue of the color "green" and a measure of red in any version of the color "brown." Orthochromatic B&W film renders blue as very light to white, while reds are rendered as dark to almost black. Modern Panchromatic B&W films render the light and dark of the color spectrum more accurately as to how we conceptualize it in our minds and would actually provide less usable information with respect to the colors found on a given subject than with the earlier type of film.
Also most important was Victor Chapman's description that the Nieuports were camouflaged in an overall dark brown with "mottling" in a lighter brown (the clay red shade) and with "imitations of landscape (painted) in light and dark green."
Simply put: 70% overall of these little ships were painted in a mottled light and dark brown while the remaining 30% of the surfaces were painted in patterns resembling patches of landscape as seen from the air, in either the light or dark shades of green AND as I believe; those "landscapes" were often spray painted in a combined or mottled light and dark green. This specifically is what I am attempting to find color photographic evidence thereof in the N940 Lt. Chaput Autochromes.
If from high resolution copies of the N940 images, the above information may be corroborated and with the approval of the governing authorities of our museum, I will attempt to re-address the Nieuport 11 replica hanging there in an effort to bring it to a level of greater accuracy, one reflecting this new idea of the actual Spring 1916 appearance at Verdun.
To put it into still other words, these aircraft were predominantly painted an overall mottled brown, with a comparatively small amount of both light and dark shades of green. As there clearly was a relatively small portion of these aircraft painted green, for quite some time, that is why I believed there was but one shade of green.
As a side consequence of the above, the many very well done color renderings of early Nieuports 11 & 16, those depicting areas of 25% in a solid not mottled light brown, 25% a solid dark brown, 25% a solid light green and 25% a solid dark green, that conceptualization of these camouflage colors actually provides a very different "feel" to the appearance of these machines, one somewhat or more "colorful" than I believe they actually appeared.
One must recall this camouflage was developed for use over the cratered battlefields of Verdun, where fresh earth and clay were daily exposed, where little vegetation was seen to survive and sadly, little else as well.
I would be most happy and to the best of my abilities, answer any questions that anyone may have.
Thank you again.
With Kind Regards,
Paul
My apologies for not writing in French, but it has been nearly 50 years since I studied your rich language as a small boy in school.
Also, many thanks Claude for your efforts in garnering the information above. I will be attempting to contact both sources for a very high resolution scan of both Lt. Jean Chaput and his N940 Lumiere Bros. Autochromes in the very near future.
What I would like to share with you good people (and I am very certain many, perhaps all of you already know this,) is that there is another Lumiere Autochrome of an early Nieuport in camouflage which may be located at "Photo 12."
This Autochrome is of a Nieuport 10: N300, or N306, or N308, it is difficult to be certain. This particular image was taken at a Belgian flying school in May of 1917. It most clearly depicts what appears to be a mostly "in the field" applied camouflage of this same "Nieuport Red, Yellow (Ocher) and Green" or "Dead-Leaf Camouflage" as found on N940.
However, easily discerned in this view (once it has been fully color corrected) is evidence of a dark conifer green as well as the lighter Ocher hue, the known straw/yellow-green color seen on the fuselage of N940 immediately adjacent to Lt. Chaput. This other shade of green, the dark green is most visible on the extreme right of the superior starboard flying surface and somewhat less so elsewhere on the ship. However, it is also apparent that upon the main flying surface none of the colors including this deep green had been applied at the Nieuport factory as the pattern and manner of application of the colors is quite different from the standard seen on many B&W photos. That is not to say this darker green is not a standard Nieuport color, for a great many reasons, I am convinced it was.
Of significance, the inferior port wing is indeed observable as a "genuine" Nieuport factory, spray-applied, Ripolin oil based paint finish. This assertion is made as this wing has much misting and blending of the very same 3 colors as seen on the fuselage of N940. Further, the port side of the Nie.10 fuselage is painted in the the very same shades of colors and in the very same sequence as on this lower wing. But that paint was applied in what appears a less sophisticated manner, again indicating this ship itself having not been delivered as camouflaged. I'd expect the lower left wing had been replaced with a factory camouflaged example. There is much more to be discussed in this regard, but unfortunately, not at this time.
What I can say is this, for many years I believed there were two shades of brown and but one green until this Nie. 10 Autochrome image was made available to me.
What I may also say that is differing from current thought on this matter and as Mr. Allan Toelle has correctly pointed out; 30% of the surfaces of early Nieuport camouflage were "light colored" while 70% were "dark colored."
From that comment, I now realize this: both greens will photograph on "Orthochromatic B&W" as a lighter shade of gray than will either shade used on a Nieuport of the browns. The reason is there is a measure of blue in virtually any shade or hue of the color "green" and a measure of red in any version of the color "brown." Orthochromatic B&W film renders blue as very light to white, while reds are rendered as dark to almost black. Modern Panchromatic B&W films render the light and dark of the color spectrum more accurately as to how we conceptualize it in our minds and would actually provide less usable information with respect to the colors found on a given subject than with the earlier type of film.
Also most important was Victor Chapman's description that the Nieuports were camouflaged in an overall dark brown with "mottling" in a lighter brown (the clay red shade) and with "imitations of landscape (painted) in light and dark green."
Simply put: 70% overall of these little ships were painted in a mottled light and dark brown while the remaining 30% of the surfaces were painted in patterns resembling patches of landscape as seen from the air, in either the light or dark shades of green AND as I believe; those "landscapes" were often spray painted in a combined or mottled light and dark green. This specifically is what I am attempting to find color photographic evidence thereof in the N940 Lt. Chaput Autochromes.
If from high resolution copies of the N940 images, the above information may be corroborated and with the approval of the governing authorities of our museum, I will attempt to re-address the Nieuport 11 replica hanging there in an effort to bring it to a level of greater accuracy, one reflecting this new idea of the actual Spring 1916 appearance at Verdun.
To put it into still other words, these aircraft were predominantly painted an overall mottled brown, with a comparatively small amount of both light and dark shades of green. As there clearly was a relatively small portion of these aircraft painted green, for quite some time, that is why I believed there was but one shade of green.
As a side consequence of the above, the many very well done color renderings of early Nieuports 11 & 16, those depicting areas of 25% in a solid not mottled light brown, 25% a solid dark brown, 25% a solid light green and 25% a solid dark green, that conceptualization of these camouflage colors actually provides a very different "feel" to the appearance of these machines, one somewhat or more "colorful" than I believe they actually appeared.
One must recall this camouflage was developed for use over the cratered battlefields of Verdun, where fresh earth and clay were daily exposed, where little vegetation was seen to survive and sadly, little else as well.
I would be most happy and to the best of my abilities, answer any questions that anyone may have.
Thank you again.
With Kind Regards,
Paul
Raoul (Paul) Lubliner
Re: Autochrome Chaput
Bonjour à tous
Paul,You talk about a 10 nieuport of Belgian flying school photographied in color autochrome (located at photo 12 ?)-
Is it possible to see the photo on a website?
Cordialement
Bruno
Paul,You talk about a 10 nieuport of Belgian flying school photographied in color autochrome (located at photo 12 ?)-
Is it possible to see the photo on a website?
Cordialement
Bruno
Re: Autochrome Chaput
Bonjour
That is obviously not a French 1916 camouflage.
That is obviously not a French 1916 camouflage.
Re: Autochrome Chaput
Et ici the same #35 en B&W at Juvisy in novembre 1917
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raoul lubliner
- Messages : 5
- Inscription : lun. nov. 09, 2015 1:00 am
Re: Autochrome Chaput
Hello Blake,
Thank you very much for your comment. Please understand, one must first see this fabuolus image in full resolution and fully color corrected with light and dark areas addressed as well, before drawing any conclusions. It is a copyrighted image and it is rather pricey, so most unfortunately, I am unable to do that here. But kindly trust me, there is some invaluable Nieuport Factory camouflage paint information present in this most colorful original.
What the corrected image depicts is yes; a " mécanicien painted" camouflage, that although also spray applied, lacks the artistic stylizations and finnesse of those from the Nieuport factory. However: the colors are identical! Also it's very clear in the full resolution image, the port lower wing has the Nieuport Factory applied camouflage and the fuselage's left side is painted in the precise sequence of colors found on the top surface of this left inferior flying surface.
From wing tip to fuselage the wing's sequence is identical to that of the fusleage from the cowling rearwards:
1) A MISTED red over brown,
2) LIGHT straw-green,
3) A full (heavy) application of clay red-brown and lastly
4) The "chocolate" or Earth brown.
This misting found on the first panel on both wing and fuselage gives the impression there are THREE shades of brown with but one green. What is lacking on the fuselage's paint application is the blending of all the colors creating a "mired" or nondescript finish as was that from the Factory. But, the lower left wing top surface clearly shows this effect to great advantage.
Further, in email exchanges with Mr. A. Toelle, he stated to me there were Nieuport 10's in the Nieuport "Dead Leaf" of "Red, Ocher, Green Camouflage."
I believe both of these are names for the same type of camouflage paint finish. That last comment of mine may be a bit much of a statement, but we do need to recall, this camouflage was used from (apparently) February 1916 through May 1916, barely four months before being replaced in June with the overall aluminum dope appearing in service by very early summer. A relatively short duration expressly developed for use over the Verdun battlefields.
In addition, IF the right lower wing is also a replacement with the factory-applied camouflage finish, visible inboard of the "V" strut is what is obviously a much darker shade of green, a cooler and more blue "conifer green" as I call it. This darker green color is also visible on the starboard elevator, in the rudder's shadow.
I feel I must again reiterate, Verdun (as elsewhere) due to the innumerable shell craters, was comprised of a predominantly brown palette, both earth brown and a clay red-brown with comparatively little vegetation visible. This coincides with Mr. Toelles "Windsock" comment that of the top surfaces of early Nieuport camouflage being comprised of 30% "light" (greens as I have described) and 70% a "dark color" (clearly, the two browns.)
It is these ratios that I am emphasizing as key with this "new" conceptual interpretation of this camouflage. I feel this opinion to be fully backed with both color images. That said, I would very much like to see the highest resolution possible copies of the N940 Autochomes, as then the application of he two greens will be more certain.
Kind Regards,
Paul