Forum PAGES 14-18

Et ici the same #35 en B&W at Juvisy in novembre 1917

http://www.belgian-wings.be/Webpages/Na ... oll-01.jpg

Bruno My Friend,

Once again you have come through for all of us!

This Orthochromatic B&W of #35 (N30X-?) is a true color key as it does show the relations ships of known colors to their depiction in Orthochromatic B&W. One where the red-brown at the rear of the fuselage renders more darkly than the chocolate or "Earth" brown. That has solved an issue I have been having of late as the Orthochromatic B&W's of N940 show the red-brown as lighter than the chocolate brown.

So, the issue there is the sensitivity of the particular film's emulsion, the exposure and reciprocity issues of film, the printing of the negative etc., etc.

Simply put, sometimes the red-brown is lighter sometimes it is darker than the chocolate brown. Period!

This image is essential to completely comprehend what it truly is that we are attempting to discern.

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Paul

Hello Raoul
- The camouflaged Belgian Nieuport is not genuine as shown by the transparent center section of the top wing.
- As a single seater with an arched strut in front of the cockpit, it has been delivered first in Summer 1915, with a clear dope finish, several months before the introduction of the Verdun camouflages.
- With an orthochromatic film the camouflage pattern won't show anything like a 1916 factory finish which should appear as dark, light, dark (wide), light, dark on the top wing and dark, light, dark on the fuselage. See the b&w Belgian photo.
- The very few Nieuports 10 truly showing a Verdun like camouflage had a clear dope finish before. When and how they got a new finish is not known, before or after the Verdun colors were discontinued from mid-1916 onward ? B&w photos show a dark and little contrasted finish.
- As long as we don't know when and how the Belgian (or the French ?) refurbished this particular plane, every assumption about the colors is speculative.

Here what it is said about these nieuport 10 on the site
on the site of which I gave the link

Nieuport 10AV/AR - 10C1

Single-engine two-seat observation aircraft - fighter & trainer

The Minister of Defence in a note dated 10 February 1915, announced a first order of 12 Nieuport 10 aircraft for the Belgian Air Service. First delivery followed on 24 May 1915, when Lieutenant Crombez arrived at Ten Bogaerde (Koksijde) airfield. An estimated total of 20 Nieuport 10 biplanes of three different variants were used by the Belgian Air Service. Twin seat observation aircraft could have the observer either sitting in the front seat or in the back seat. This layout was identified as Nie 10AV (AVant/front) or Nie 10AR (ARrière/behind). It would have been more logical to indicate the pilot’s position, but in the early days the observer was always an officer and commander of the aircraft. The pilot was almost exclusively a non-commissioned officer (NCO) and only considered as being the driver for the officer/observer. A third type was the single seat fighter version designated Nie 10C1 (C for Chasse/Hunt) obtained by covering the front seat so that the pilot could handle a machine gun positioned on top of the upper wing, thus shooting out of the propeller’s arc. It is not known whether the Belgian Air Service received new single seaters or if the Nie 10C1’s operated were all field conversions. Belgian ace Jan Olieslagers obtained his first confirmed victory aboard a Nie10 converted into fighter on 12 September 1915 over Oud Stuyvekenskerke. These three types of Nieuport 10 were powered by the 80 hp Le Rhône 9C engine.
With the introduction of the improved Nie 11C1 “BéBé” in early 1916 at least seven Nie 10 single and twin-seaters were transferred to the pilot school at Etampes (F.) receiving Belgian serials between 31 and 37. The survivors of these aircraft soldiered on at the pilot schools of Juvisy (F.) and Asch (Serials 102 to 107). By 1920 the last of the Belgian Nieuport 10 trainers was withdrawn from operational use. (Daniel Brackx)

Hello Raoul
- The camouflaged Belgian Nieuport is not genuine as shown by the transparent center section of the top wing.
- As a single seater with an arched strut in front of the cockpit, it has been delivered first in Summer 1915, with a clear dope finish, several months before the introduction of the Verdun camouflages.
- With an orthochromatic film the camouflage pattern won't show anything like a 1916 factory finish which should appear as dark, light, dark (wide), light, dark on the top wing and dark, light, dark on the fuselage. See the b&w Belgian photo.
- The very few Nieuports 10 truly showing a Verdun like camouflage had a clear dope finish before. When and how they got a new finish is not known, before or after the Verdun colors were discontinued from mid-1916 onward ? B&w photos show a dark and little contrasted finish.
- As long as we don't know when and how the Belgian (or the French ?) refurbished this particular plane, every assumption about the colors is speculative.

Firstly and to ALL: My deepest condolences regarding the events of this past Friday.


Hello Blake,

Yes you are correct. This aircraft was delivered in Ecru with lining around the perimeter of the flying surfaces as well as the longerons of the fuselage. I have discussed this very matter with Mr. Allen Toelle some years back and let us say he has backed-up the comment that there were indeed Nieuport 10's in camouflage.

But please do not quickly discard this wonderful photograph for the above truism. There are TWO key factors present in this image itself that answer questions regarding early Nieuport aircraft colors.

What I am saying is this:

This aircraft was for the most part; an in-the-field camouflage painted aircraft and not a factory camouflage finished machine. While the top of the upper flying surface clearly has no resemblance to the genuine factory camouflage paint pattern or it's application, the fuselage and perhaps the empanage as well were painted in a fashion somewhat resembling the actual camouflage as supplied from the Nieuport Factory, while using what appear to be the actual colors of the factory camouflage. The colors used on the lower left wing are spot on with those found on the Lt. Chaput N940 Nieuport 11 and the misted application found there is a duplicate as well.

More importantly, when viewing the high resolution version of this copyrighted image, it is most obvious the lower port/left wing is not only a newer replacement, but it also is finished with the genuine Nieuport Factory applied "Dead Leaf camouflage". This is easily discernible in high resolution by observing the translucency of the overlapping "mottled" colors. No where else is that visible except perhaps of the lower starboard wing.

And then there is the "little" matter of that port aileron finished in Ecru with it's contrasting perimeter stripe. Yes, the answer as to what color the perimeter striping as applied to so many early overall Ecru painted Nieuport 10's, 11's and 12 is found in this image!

Incidentally, CDL is somewhat transparent and when a clear doped linen aircraft's mainplane or other component is viewed from below with the sun above, the wing's structure is visible. These early Nieuports had a factory applied finish that was always opaque and that is not only found with the overall light-blue painted machines, but the Ecru finished one's as well. So CDL could not have been how they were finished. That has been documented and written about at length.

Here is a revised version of the same image you have already posted one that more closely matches the appearance of the High Resolution Lumiere Autochrome's color values as the overall "green cast" has been significantly reduced:


Please be patient, I am working towards licensing etc., in order to write an article with as good as is possible reproduction of these early Lumiere Autochromes so that all will be very clear.

Kind regards,

Raoul

Here what it is said about these nieuport 10 on the site
on the site of which I gave the link

Nieuport 10AV/AR - 10C1

Single-engine two-seat observation aircraft - fighter & trainer

The Minister of Defence in a note dated 10 February 1915, announced a first order of 12 Nieuport 10 aircraft for the Belgian Air Service. First delivery followed on 24 May 1915, when Lieutenant Crombez arrived at Ten Bogaerde (Koksijde) airfield. An estimated total of 20 Nieuport 10 biplanes of three different variants were used by the Belgian Air Service. Twin seat observation aircraft could have the observer either sitting in the front seat or in the back seat. This layout was identified as Nie 10AV (AVant/front) or Nie 10AR (ARrière/behind). It would have been more logical to indicate the pilot’s position, but in the early days the observer was always an officer and commander of the aircraft. The pilot was almost exclusively a non-commissioned officer (NCO) and only considered as being the driver for the officer/observer. A third type was the single seat fighter version designated Nie 10C1 (C for Chasse/Hunt) obtained by covering the front seat so that the pilot could handle a machine gun positioned on top of the upper wing, thus shooting out of the propeller’s arc. It is not known whether the Belgian Air Service received new single seaters or if the Nie 10C1’s operated were all field conversions. Belgian ace Jan Olieslagers obtained his first confirmed victory aboard a Nie10 converted into fighter on 12 September 1915 over Oud Stuyvekenskerke. These three types of Nieuport 10 were powered by the 80 hp Le Rhône 9C engine.
With the introduction of the improved Nie 11C1 “BéBé” in early 1916 at least seven Nie 10 single and twin-seaters were transferred to the pilot school at Etampes (F.) receiving Belgian serials between 31 and 37. The survivors of these aircraft soldiered on at the pilot schools of Juvisy (F.) and Asch (Serials 102 to 107). By 1920 the last of the Belgian Nieuport 10 trainers was withdrawn from operational use. (Daniel Brackx)

Hello Bruno,

That is really "Getting into the weeds" as we say over here, extremely good detail and most interesting reading especially about Jan Olieslagers.

With regards,

Paul