Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par laperouse » ven. févr. 16, 2018 7:21 pm

zelaian a écrit :
lun. févr. 12, 2018 3:12 pm
Bonjour à tous,
@ Lapérouse (et pour tous) : le programme du festival Rugb'Images d'Albi est en ligne http://rugbimages.com/programme
Celui, plus détaillé, du colloque du 20 mars est également disponible ici :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yK4ypK ... PMnaS/view

Francis et moi ne manquerons pas de rappeler tout ce que nos connaissances actuelles sur le sujet doivent à nos échanges au travers de ce fil.
...
à bientôt
Merci beaucoup pour les infos. L'entrée du colloque est-elle libre ou soumise à conditions, inscriptions?

Quant au programme d'ensemble, je remarque un sujet plus que jamais d'actualité:
GAILLAC – Mardi 27/03/2018 – Le rugby et la nuit : 3ème mi-temps d’hier et d’aujourd’hui » – Imagin’cinémas – 18h30 Invités : Jacques Cimarosti, Didier Lacroix, Jean-Christophe Collin
A ma place, ou perdu dans le pacifique Sud.

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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par rugby-pioneers » lun. févr. 19, 2018 4:30 pm

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Bonjour,

Il y a 100 ans (et deux jours...), Neo Zélandais et Français s'affrontaient au Parc de princes devant 20 000 personnes. Courte victoire 5-3 (un essai partout) des Blacks au terme du rencontre de belle qualité - plusieurs très grands joueurs de cette génération sont sur la pelouse!

Les archives Néo Zélandaises (l'équivalent de l'INA) viennent de mettre en ligne un sujet de 9min qui montre 5 minutes de ce match, précédé de la visite de Paris (Invalides, Etoile) et Versailles par les joueurs NZ en "charabanc" (comme on dit en anglais...)

J'ai fait quelques mauvaises copies d'écran avec mon téléphone pour donner un peu de contexte... la qualité du film est meilleure.

Superbe et émouvant d'apercevoir ainsi Struxiano et Géo André, les frères Fernand et Jules Forgues et puis Jaureguy, de Beyssac et Fellonneau, Domercq, Lasserre dont on rappelait la carrière il y a quelques jours, Strohl, Senmartin sous le pseudo Navos (qui saurait pourquoi?), Thierry, Saillot, Nicolaï et Rouziès... (je n'ai oublié personne!).

Beyssac, Fellonneau et Jules Forgues seront tués dans les derniers mois du conflit.

Le film est visible ici : https://www.ngataonga.org.nz/collection ... 1%E2%80%AC

L'historien NZ Chris Pugsley a contextualisé toutes les archives des films sur la Grande Guerre ramenés par le NZEF. Je reproduis ici ses notes - sans les traduire :)
In February 1918 the Divisional “All Blacks” were reformed. They played the 38th (Welsh) Division team on 12 February, winning 14-3, in preparation for a game against a French Army team in Paris, at Parc de Princes, on 17 February. This film shows snippets of the match as well as the team sightseeing in Paris as they toured points of interest by charabanc leading up to the game, including the Bois de Boulogne, Arc de Triomphe and Les Invalides on the 16th and the Palace of Versailles on the 18th.

The film is significant as it is one of only three films that survive, from the large number shot, showing the New Zealand Divisional “All Blacks” rugby team in action during World War One. (The others are F4330 REVIEW OF NEW ZEALAND TROOPS BY HON WALTER LONG & F4517 SEEING SIGHTS OF PARIS BEFORE FOOTBALL MATCH).

An American Army Officer, chosen for his neutrality, Lt A. S. Muhr refereed the match but forgot how long the game should go for: 30 minutes was played in the first half, 45 for the second. The match was won by New Zealand 5-3 and “t was a case of a magnificent team of athletes [France] playing a half-trained team of footballers [New Zealand]... It was a lucky New Zealand win.” (Chronicles of the NZEF, Vol. IV, no.39, 13 March 1918, p.56). The result was widely reported in newspapers throughout New Zealand and also in the English press:

“Both victors and vanquished received a tremendous ovation from the crowd which invaded the ground and carried in triumph the members of the French team, who had played a splendid game. The whole French team is to be congratulated... As for the victors there is nothing to be said except that they showed themselves worthy of their reputation.” (Sporting Life).

“No football match played in Paris created greater interest than that between soldiers of New Zealand and French Armies. New Zealand was represented by a team considered by all equal to any Colonial pre-war team, although less trained; but the French fifteen, which included nine aviators, three tank officers, and two second-lieutenants escaped from Germany recently, played better and faster than any pre-war national team. Play was even in the first half, and in the second France kept the direction of the game until the last five minutes..." (Evening Standard, 18 February 1918. Extracts from Chronicles of the NZEF, Vol. IV, no.38, 27 February 1918).

The film opens with a Paris street scene showing New Zealand team getting into a horsed charabanc outside the Hotel de Paris for a tour of the sights of the city. After driving through the Bois de Boulogne the team inspect captured war trophies at Les Invalides in a scene where the cameraman H. A. Sanders has obviously thought out his angles. The film cuts to their visit to the Palace of Versailles, and then shows footage of the match at the Parc de Princes. The difficulties of filming a rugby match with a single camera from the sidelines are clearly demonstrated, but the shots of the crowd and of the two teams taking the field capture much of the atmosphere of the occasion as well as the spirit of the two teams: compare the dour look of the New Zealanders with the French who walk on brimming with Gallic insouciance with coats still worn or draped over their shoulder. Clearly shown here is the New Zealand Captain Sapper G. Murray and Vice Captain A. “Ranji” Wilson; the lady kicking off is Violet Russell, daughter of Maj Gen Sir Andrew Russell. The film closes with the charabanc driving past the Arc de Triomphe.



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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par zelaian » lun. févr. 19, 2018 5:29 pm

Bonjour à tous,

Merci Frédéric !
et merci à l'Armée NZ d'avoir dépêché un caméraman, que l'on aperçoit ici sur la gauche :
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b5 ... rugby.zoom

Je dirais même plus : émouvant et superbe !
Pour le peu qu'on en voit, ils ont envoyé du jeu ...
à 5:12, impressionnant lancer en fond d'alignement (par Struxiano ?), le ballon pesait plus que ceux d'aujourd'hui.
et en prime, le sourire de Miss Violet RUSSELL donnant le coup d'envoi.

"A.MUHR chosen for his neutrality" ... si on veut, il est tout de même international français.

Le compte-rendu dans l'Auto du lendemain :
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k4 ... .item.zoom
"Jamais équipe de France n'a joué avec autant de science" ... on en viendrait presque à regretter de ne pas être plus jeune de 100 ans ...
Lire aussi dans Rugby l'analyse (à distance) de Clovis BIOUSSA, regrettant que "Sainte Mère l'Union" n'ait pas fait jouer le match à Toulouse (un peu loin du front tout de même pour y faire venir nos poilus-rugbymen) :
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5 ... .item.zoom

Frédéric, si tu en as d'autres des comme ça ...

Pour répondre à la question de Lapérouse, je pense que l'accès est libre mais il vaut mieux le vérifier auprès des organisateurs :
http://rugbimages.com/contact

à bientôt
DENIS
"Voyageur, souviens-toi du Moulin de Vauclerc" (d'après Louis ARAGON)

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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par rugby-pioneers » lun. févr. 19, 2018 6:06 pm

zelaian a écrit :
lun. févr. 19, 2018 5:29 pm
et merci à l'Armée NZ d'avoir dépêché un caméraman, que l'on aperçoit ici sur la gauche :
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b5 ... rugby.zoom

Je dirais même plus : émouvant et superbe !
Pour le peu qu'on en voit, ils ont envoyé du jeu ...
à 5:12, impressionnant lancer en fond d'alignement (par Struxiano ?), le ballon pesait plus que ceux d'aujourd'hui.
et en prime, le sourire de Miss Violet RUSSELL donnant le coup d'envoi.

"A.MUHR chosen for his neutrality" ... si on veut, il est tout de même international français.
Bien vu le détail sur le cameraman !
J'ai zoomé... le plan montre l'arbitre Allan Muhr qui courre de dos (bien loin de l'action selon les pratiques de l'époque...) et l'arbitre de touche NZ, le Colonel Plugge, patron des sports de la NZEF et promoteur de tous ces matchs internationaux en France, Angleterre et Afrique du Sud (pour un aspect moins connu des matchs de 1918-18 sur lesquels on pourra revenir...)
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Le lancer en touche ne m'avait pas échappé ! la balle part comme une bombe à 20 mètres... Struxiano - si c'est lui en toute logique - aurait fait un fameux quarterback !
(jolie photo en 1920)
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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par rugby-pioneers » lun. févr. 19, 2018 9:45 pm

et merci à l'Armée NZ d'avoir dépêché un caméraman, que l'on aperçoit ici sur la gauche
On me dit dans l’oreillette (branchée avec la Nouvelle Zélande) que le cameraman est le Honorary Captain Henry Armytage Sanders, New Zealand Engineers. (

edit 22 fev: je corrige le 2eme prénom. Erreur relevée par Denis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Armytage_Sanders

edit 20 fev.
Ron Palenski nous envoie aussi le compte rendu de Malcolm Ross, le correspondant de guerre qui suivait la NZEF. Cet article paru dans le Taranaki Daily News le 21 may 1918 évoque le match, le banquet, la spectaculaire évasion de Géo André et de son camarade Saillot, Maurice Boyau et la vie à Paris... à lire absolument si un peu d'Anglais de vous fait pas peur !

J'ai juste mis en exergue la phrase qui dit que les NZ ont eu de la chance et que la meilleure équipe n'a pas gagné...

article : https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newsp ... #image-tab
FOOTBALL IN FRANCE.
NEW ZEALAND v. FRANCE.
(From Malcolm Ross)

The annual Rugby football match between teams from the Armies of France and New Zealand took place on a recent Sunday at the Parc des Princes Velodrome, Paris. Parenthetically, it may be remarked that, except for the church services, Sunday, in the war, is tile same as any other day. All work goes on just as on week days, and there is no half-holiday at the front.

The teams were as follows:—
New Zealand.—Bdr. Capper, back; Dvr. Doull, Gnr. Ryan, Spr. Loveridge, three-quarters; Spr. Murray (captain) and Pte. Carnegie, five-eighths; L.-Cpl. Brown, half-back; Cpl. Standen, Sgt. Fogarty, Sgt. Wilson, Gnr. West, Sgt. Bell, Pte. Geary, and Spr. M'Donald, forwards.

Franco.—Sgt. Navos (Olympique, Biarritz) hack: Sgt. G.André (Racing Club de France.) Sgt. Strohl (Racing Club de France), Sgt. Lasserre (Aviron Bayonnais). and Cpl Jaurreguy (Stadoceste Tarbais), three-quarters; Cpl. Struxiano (Stade Toulousain) and Lt. Domercq (Aviron Bayonnais), half-backs; Sec.-Lt. Mauriat (Football Club de Lyon), Sgt.-Maj. Nicolai, Lt. de Beyssac (Stade Bordelais), Sgt. Jules Forgues (Aviron Bayonnais), Sgt. Fernand Forgues (Aviron Bayonnais, captain), Sgt.Maj. Rouzies (Stade Toulousain), Lt. Thierry (Racing Club de France), and Sgt. Saillot (Cercle Amical de Paris), forwards.

The match was watched with the keenest interest by a crowd of between 15,000 and 20,000 people. Lieutenant Boyau, of the Flying Corps, was to have captained the French. He has brought down thirteen German planes. Last year he flew over to Paris in his plane from the front, played as captain in the match, and then flew back to the front in the evening. It was his intention to have repeated the same performance this time, but the weather was too fine for sport when there were Boche planes about, so the gallant Boyau stayed at home, and that day brought down his thirteenth enemy plane. There were several distinguished people, military and others, present at the match, but duty at the front prevented any Anzac general from attending. The New Zealand team was in charge of Colonel A. Plugge, C.M.G., who acted as one of the line umpires. The referee was an American resident in Paris, who after the war commenced joined up with the French Army and was now in the uniform of the American Army, but wearing the Croix de Guerre, gained, I was told, at Verdun. Miss Russell, daughter of the New Zealand General kicked off, after having been presented with a very handsome bouquet by the promoters of the match, which, by the way, was in aid of the purchase of footballs for the French Army. Moving and other pictures of the play were taken by the New Zealand Official Cinematographer and other operators. It was thought that the New Zealand team, which had only a few days before handsomely defeated a famous division's team at the front, would win easily. Soon after the kick-off it, however, became apparent that they would have all their work cut out to win. And so it happened. Indeed their win was a very lucky one, and there was no New Zealanders present who did not admit that the better team did not win. The Frenchmen began with great dash, their forwards were very fine, and some of their backs exceedingly fast runners. Moreover their passing was at times quite brilliant, and they were not afraid to pass, even in their own territory, when danger threatened. The game was a very hard one. Indeed so willing was the play that often there were times when two or three players were temporarily knocked out at the same time and the game had to be stopped. Physically the French were a fine-looking lot, and they certainly displayed the dash and quickness that have been characteristics of their race in this war. Their defence was as good as it was at Verdun, and what luck there was in the game was certainly on the side of the New Zealanders. Competent judges who saw last year's match said that the present French team was forty points better than last year's. Certainly the French Army has learnt to play Rugby football. Of late the whole army has been playing it at the front, and this practise, as well as the training in the war itself, has made the French soldier the fine athlete he now is. The French are keen now on sending a team to tour New Zealand and Australia after the war. It is almost a pity that they could not go out during the war. Such a team as played in Paris the other day would give a splendid account of themselves, and would, I feel sure, get a rousing reception. The Entente requires no further cementing at present, but, in the years to come, such an exchange of visit-, between the Dominion and the Republic would surely be mutually beneficial. One of the outstanding features of the game was the play of Andre, a wing three-quarter, who seemed one of the fastest men we have seen on the football field for many a long day. Some of the other backs were also very quick and fast, and the defence of a player called Navos was exceedingly fine. It was well on in the second spell before the French scored the first try, and not till near the end that the New Zealanders, after a series of desperate attacks, managed to score and to place a difficult goal. It was a lightning-like bit of passing that took the play at this stage right into the French twenty five, and enabled Carnegie to dash through near the corner flag. It was Capper who kicked the goal, thus giving the New Zealanders a luck win by the narrow margin of two points. But for the fact that the referee's watch had stopped in the first spell, so that the second spell had to be prolonged for several minutes, the New Zealanders might not have scored at all.

THE DINNER.
In the evening the two teams were entertained at dinner at the Cafe Cardinal. There one met several of the French players who have distinguished themselves in the war. Everyone regretted the absence of Boyau, who detained last year's team at Vincennes already wears the Legion d'Honneur and the Médaille Militaire, and has been eleven times mentioned in orders. As already stated, he had that day been better employed. Opposite me sat Andre, a sergeant, and Saillot, another sergeant, who were prisoners In Germany. but escaped, and are now back in the French Army. They burrowed under the German wire, killed two of their guards and getting into civilian clothes, which they stole, worked for a considerable time in Germany as plumbers. They travelled to Berlin, lived there for a fortnight, and walked two hundred kilometers to the frontier, bringing back with them important information. For this service they were rewarded with the Legion d'Honneur. Saillot has won prizes as a long-distance runner. Andre is one of the best all-round athletes that France has produced. He has done the hundred yards in 9 4/5 seconds, was second in the 20 feet broad jump at Stockholm, and has established himself both as a high jumper and a hurdler. As a wing three-quarter he was so fast that he made our fellows seem slow. Near me was one of the team—Lieutenant Thierry who had lost an eye in the war. He had also received a bayonet wound. He wore the Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. There were no fewer than seven airmen in the team. Two belonged to the Tank Corps. The scene as the evening wore on with song and chorus and speech, and the blue smoke wreaths rose to the chandeliers, was one to be remembered. The New Zealanders in their sombre khaki were in strange contrast to the French in their variety of gayer uniform. The New Zealanders did their Maori war dance and song, and English and French joined in the "Long way to Tipperary." Later the Frenchmen broke into the songs and choruses of their own districts—those little songs of a great nation that stir the pulses at any time, but more particularly in such years as we are now passing through.

As we strolled homewards, past the towering black column in the Place Vendome, its base now concreted and sandbagged, with a turn to gain the Rue Royale, at the end of which the splendid columns of the Madeleine seemed more impressive than in the day, and so on to our hotel in the Place de la Concorde, Paris, with its blue-shaded, wartime lights, was ethereally beautiful in the clear moonlight. The anti-aircraft guns were booming, and away in the direction of the Arc de Triomphe parachute lights in the sky blozed brilliantly, indicating an air raid. But there were still many people abroad in the streets, and all seemed unafraid. An old woman had come back from her home to be with her daughter, who was still selling newspapers in the little stall on the pavement. They were sipping, each, a cup of hot coffee, and had a cheery word for us as we bought a paper in passing. In the fourth year of the war, with a big German offensive threatening, the morale of Paris was certainly still high.
NB: Ron Palenski, historien du rugby et l'armée NZ, avait écrit un article sur Malcom Ross il ya quelques années https://www.odt.co.nz/lifestyle/magazin ... lcolm-ross

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Dernière modification par rugby-pioneers le jeu. févr. 22, 2018 11:06 am, modifié 2 fois.

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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par zelaian » mar. févr. 20, 2018 10:59 am

Bonjour Frédéric,
Bonjour à tous,

Pour l'anecdote, le Colonel PLUGGE fêtait ce jour-là son anniversaire :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Plugge

Quant à l'autre touche, elle était arbitrée par le dirigeant de l'USFSA Roger W. MAGNANOU ...
... ce qui nous ramène au Club Athlétique Périgourdin dont il fut le créateur avec Roger DANTOU.

Voir ce blog qui retrace l'historique du club :
http://mondomicile.centerblog.net/946-l ... du-c-a-p-d
L'article indique, parmi les MPF, le Président LABASSE.
On peut effectivement lire ce nom au dessus de celui des joueurs, reste à découvrir le prénom.

Sur MDH, 3 MPF de ce nom natifs de la Dordogne en 1885, 1887 et 1895. C'est un des deux premiers, je pense Yvon (ou Yvan):
https://archives.dordogne.fr/arkotheque ... m_rotate=F

à bientôt
DENIS
"Voyageur, souviens-toi du Moulin de Vauclerc" (d'après Louis ARAGON)

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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par zelaian » mar. févr. 20, 2018 6:03 pm

rugby-pioneers a écrit :
lun. févr. 19, 2018 9:45 pm

On me dit dans l’oreillette (branchée avec la Nouvelle Zélande) que le cameraman est le Honorary Captain Henry Augustus Sanders, New Zealand Engineers.
semble-t-il, plutôt Henry Armytage SANDERS
https://ww100.govt.nz/photographing-new ... ers-at-war
Sanders joined the New Zealand Division on 8 April 1917, as the division was preparing to attack Messines. His photos and films provide the only official visual record of the New Zealanders in France. (Another cinematographer from Pathé Frères, Thomas Scales, was appointed in April 1917 as 'cinema expert' for the New Zealanders in Britain – his photos are contained within the ‘UK’ series).
8 avril 1917 : précisément le jour du match de la "Coupe de la Somme". simple coïncidence ?
La série "UK" couvre en particulier la période du printemps 1919, et ainsi les matches joués en Angleterre et en France, comme celui-ci à Toulouse (enfin, a dû penser Clovis BIOUSSA) :
https://natlib.govt.nz/records/23010081 ... +1914+1918

J'en viens à me demander si le "cinematographer" du Parc en 1918 ne serait pas plutôt Thomas SCALES ?
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/br ... rds/632921
Henry SANDERS étant quant à lui simplement "photographer" :
http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/deliv ... IE17568355

Qu'en dit l'ami Ron ?

edit : j'ai lu trop vite, SCALES était apparemment en Angleterre.

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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par zelaian » mer. févr. 21, 2018 10:19 am

Bonjour à tous,

Dernier regard (pour l'instant, ça fait mal aux yeux à la longue) sur la plaque commémorative du CAP, sur laquelle je pense avoir identifié deux nouveaux joueurs dont on retrouve les noms dans les compos :

Ernest DUJARRIC : http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense ... m_rotate=F

et Robert MATHELON : http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense ... m_rotate=F

en récapitulant à ce stade, ça donne la liste suivante :

Yvan LABASSE, Président
Roger BECHADE le capitaine (du CAP et du 50e RI)
Edgard DANTOU
Ernest DUJARRIC
Léon (Jean) LARRIBAU
Géo LAVAUD
Robert MATHELON
Robert MAZEAUD
Pierre MERGIER
Robert MICHEGUE
Pierre ROULAND
René ROUX

Certains d'entre eux sont sur ces deux photos de 1912,
avec le CAP : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6 ... gueux.zoom
compo : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k4 ... .item.zoom

avec le 50e RI : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b5 ... gueux.zoom
compo : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k4 ... .item.zoom

à bientôt
DENIS
"Voyageur, souviens-toi du Moulin de Vauclerc" (d'après Louis ARAGON)

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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par rugby-pioneers » mer. févr. 21, 2018 1:20 pm

Hello Denis

Je salue ta persévérance dans le "décodage" du MAM de Périgueux! Bravo !

Deux petits commentaires sans beaucoup d'intérêt..

D'abord à remarquer que cet Ernest DUJARRIC est né à St Pierre de Chignac... à 30km de Montignac berceau familial de la famille du rugbyman-architecte Louis FAURE-DUJARRIC... au cas où des généalogistes voudraient rechercher des cousinages !

Ensuite, je me plais à comparer les maillots du CAP et du 50eme RI dont tu as donné les liens. On a souvent commenté la perméabilité entre les clubs civils et militaires, mais là je me demande juste s'ils ne partagent pas aussi leurs maillots !
25-2-12_Colombes_rugby_équipe_du_[...]Agence_Rol_btv1b6919119c-min.jpeg
25-2-12_Colombes_rugby_équipe_du_[...]Agence_Rol_btv1b6919119c-min.jpeg (245.09 Kio) Consulté 879 fois
12-5-12_Colombes_rugby_équipe_du_[...]Agence_Rol_btv1b53114385v-min.jpeg
12-5-12_Colombes_rugby_équipe_du_[...]Agence_Rol_btv1b53114385v-min.jpeg (231.96 Kio) Consulté 879 fois
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Re: Rugby et rugbymen pendant la Grande Guerre

Message par peyo » jeu. févr. 22, 2018 11:23 pm

Bonsoir à tous
Dans la composition de l'équipe de France contre la NZ je vois Sergent Navos Olympique Biarritz, qui est-ce?
avant recherches plus complètes ce nom m'est inconnu, avez vous des précisions ?
Bien amicalement
peyo
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